Episode 3: Conversations and Concept Albums




Whether we are introverted or extroverted by nature, many of us yearn for good quality conversation in our lives. So how does a good conversation come to be?! Is there a RHYTHM to a good conversation; a hack so that we can fill our days with the good stuff?! Listen in as Hannah reflects on this very topic and then join her and Kris as they try to figure it out. (As to whether or not this meets the criteria of a ‘good’ conversation, we’ll let you be the judge of that!)

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This transcript was generated automatically and may not be 100 percent accurate.

Episode transcript:

00:00:00:04 - 00:00:02:01

Kris

Welcome to the Rhythms Podcast.


00:00:02:08 - 00:00:03:04

Hannah

My name's Hannah.


00:00:03:11 - 00:00:09:24

Kris

And my name's Kris. This podcast is all about exploring the rhythms that add richness to our everyday lives.


00:00:11:05 - 00:00:17:22

Hannah

From daily habits to embracing the changing seasons. It's not about mindless routines, but patterns with purpose.


00:00:18:06 - 00:00:38:22

Kris

It's about making something special out of something ordinary. Each episode listen in as one of us shares a reflection on the roles of rhythms in our lives. Join our conversation as we unpack this idea further, and then spend a moment with us considering how a rhythm could shape or add a richness to our lives this week.


00:00:38:22 - 00:01:18:04

Hannah

This is episode one: Conversations and Concept albums. You know it's a good conversation when you go to bed hours after the time you'd planned to. When a tour of a new friend's home never gets finished because you and new said friend chatted in her son's room for over an hour. When the plane lands, but it feels like you just took off. When you’re still remembering it, maybe even telling other people about the conversation, days and weeks later.


00:01:18:11 - 00:01:54:24

Hannah

We'll all have our own knowings of when we've been part of a good conversation. All come from memories of fun chats, shared musings, evenings of laughter with good friends or even strangers, maybe even a robust, fiery debate. But how does a good conversation come to be? As I've been more intentionally reflecting on the role of rhythms in my life, I found myself wondering if there's a rhythm to a good conversation.


00:01:56:13 - 00:02:21:07

Hannah

The Internet will try to answer this question for you. I didn't find an answer that satisfied me, but it got me thinking. My family will tell you I'm an introvert. I love my own company. Time alone is like a glass of cold water on a summer day. Even when I was a teenager, we knew this. It wasn't weird for me to request politely but firmly that my family go and spend time away from the house.


00:02:22:06 - 00:02:42:01

Hannah

Time in the house by myself was and is one of my favourite things. I might read. Go for a walk. I know - not fair of me to leave when I've just made everyone else go out - watch telly, tidy and make the house pretty. It doesn't matter what I do. I just love doing it by myself. I'm an introvert.


00:02:49:00 - 00:02:59:10

Hannah

I love a good conversation. In fact, perhaps my introverted nature is the reason I love good conversation, good quality conversation.


00:03:01:11 - 00:03:35:20

Hannah

A good conversation for me tends to be one on one. It can be deep or important, personal. Don't get me wrong, it's fun. There's laughter. But I like substance. I like to leave it wondering. Processing, changing like time in my own company. A fun, important conversation helps me feel like me. It helps me remember who I am. It helps me feel alive. Are my days...


00:03:35:20 - 00:03:57:11

Hannah

...full of good conversations? No, but that's okay. I don't make my family's favourite steamed chocolate pudding every day either. But when I do make it on Wednesday evenings for the ritual of watching Taskmaster together, bowls of chocolate pudding and French vanilla ice cream in our laps, we relish it. My recipe for a fun family night is just that...


00:03:58:04 - 00:04:11:07

Hannah

...the latest episode of Taskmaster UK on a cozy autumn night with our fave dessert. My sister always offering me a coke and raspberry like I'm a guest. It's extra awesome if it's cold enough to smell our neighbours wood-fire burning.


00:04:15:21 - 00:04:39:04

Hannah

I'm lucky enough I realise this to be very true, not everyone gets this) to have also found a pretty consistent shortcut to memorable, enjoyable, time flyable conversation too, forgetting to pick up the kids you babysit on Wednesday afternoons because you're spinning hours chatting over McDonald's cokes and fries. Don't worry, that was 18 year old me not today me) to a late night because we forgot to go to bed.


00:04:39:21 - 00:05:00:09

Hannah

I found friends with whom good chats are as easy as breathing. The thoughts and words, questions and stories. They all come in a flash. One of those friends is like family. This friend's work takes her traveling across the country and the globe. So when she's between jobs or when her work happens to bring her to town, she visits the Koru lounge...


00:05:01:01 - 00:05:24:19

Hannah

...our name for the spare bedroom, which will always be hers. Koru, (not her real name) is doing the mahi (or “work”). What I mean by that is she's intentionally finding out who she is and how she can best be Koru out in the world, how she can create beautiful things to contribute to the world, how she can affirm, support and learn from herself and other people...


00:05:25:17 - 00:05:28:06

Hannah

...those who think similarly to her and those who don't.


00:05:32:03 - 00:06:04:21

Hannah

A good conversation with Koru usually happens in a dim living room. The rest of the family and house already put to bed. One of us is usually starting to say goodnight when there's a flash of the conversation magic. Because of who Koru is, a good topic, full of opinions, shared learning, challenge and surprise is never far away. They say that great minds discuss ideas, average minds discuss events, and small minds discuss people.


00:06:05:20 - 00:06:29:05

Hannah

If there's truth to this, then it'd be fair to say that Koru is a great mind. But I think the real conversation magic is found in Koru’s presence and her curiosity. The questions she asks about life, about culture, about value, about her conversation partner. They open up a fork in the road with a million different paths of conversation to take.


00:06:30:03 - 00:07:01:06

Hannah

They reveal how present she is in the conversation - that she's actively listening and that genuine curiosity to understand or know more, drives the questions she asks. Koru teaches me that curiosity is a key ingredient in a good conversation. Another friend with whom a fun and good quality conversation is never far away is a new friend, a friend from church, we actually have the same first name and we've joked that maybe we're the same person.


00:07:01:23 - 00:07:28:12

Hannah

We have the same Myers-Briggs personality type. We both have education backgrounds. We have some similar thoughts about the community we're both part of. But what we really have in common, what makes a good conversation is that our energy aligns. There’s synergy - chemistry. It's like our talking makes us both come alive. Both become wonderful versions of ourselves. Brings out of both of us the best stories, thoughts, and anecdotes.


00:07:30:10 - 00:07:56:04

Hannah

Even the speed at which we talk lines up, as does the excitement in our voices. The level of vulnerability in what we share. It's fun. And truthfully, we're obviously not exactly alike. Thank goodness. She's teaching me all the time. She's showing me new ways of thinking. Like with Koru, I leave my conversations with her different, I think more or differently about things we've discussed.


00:07:56:14 - 00:08:23:17

Hannah

I notice different things and I leave the conversation feeling all filled up. This friend has shown me how chemistry, synergy, energy is also a key ingredient in a good conversation. Does a good conversation have rhythm? Well, my co-host, Kris, is an experienced and accomplished musician who will be sure to poke holes if I try to apply the idea of music and rhythm...


00:08:23:17 - 00:08:44:23

Hannah

...in my answer, so I'll go a slightly different route. I think a good conversation is like listening to a good album. You know, the ones that are meant to be listened to in order the whole way through. It's hard to tell when one track finishes and the next one begins because they blend together seamlessly as one song finishes, the next one is already beginning.


00:08:45:18 - 00:09:13:19

Hannah

Themes, melodies, ideas they weave through the tracks, each one its own, but also a part of the bigger picture. And as you listen, you find the tone, the pace, the rhythm. It matches your own. That synergy, chemistry, you find yourself humming, singing, tapping along your own ideas, memories and stories are brought to mind and become part of the listening experience.


00:09:15:24 - 00:09:39:17

Hannah

You can listen to an album in the background, and that's a pleasant thing. But a good conversation is like actively listening to an album, giving the songs your focus, your presence, your curiosity. We've all been blasted by the multitude of Instagram posts from Swifties when Taylor drops new a album, haven’t we? Within hours, they love to share their top five tracks, favorite lyrics and guesses of who the songs are about.


00:09:40:12 - 00:10:07:12

Hannah

And whether you're a Swifty or not, this may be the best way to enjoy an album - for the first time or the hundredth. Being present. Bringing yourself and your curiosity to the experience And listening to one of those albums... well, often you're just not ready for them to end. The goodbye, the final track. It comes too soon. You can't wait to dive back in to hear or discover something new within.


00:10:07:23 - 00:10:37:15

Hannah

Or perhaps you get to tell someone else about it. Share was the friend your favourite words or idea or melody... how it made you feel So... I know, I said I wouldn't try to figure out if I can apply the idea of a rhythm to a good convo. I know. So I'll just say this. A good conversation and one of those beautiful, listen in order all at once albums and our rhythms, our daily rhythms, our rhythms of life...


00:10:38:13 - 00:10:52:09

Hannah

...somehow they carry us. We don't have to work so hard, feel so adrift. They take us along with them to somewhere. Somewhere we need to be. Or, sometimes, somewhere new.


00:11:02:18 - 00:11:06:03

Kris

So we've got two introverts hosting a podcast. What a great way to start.


00:11:06:12 - 00:11:29:07

Hannah

This is so true. No, but this is like, what my point is. Is I think as introverts, we sometimes misunderstand that and think, Oh, we just want to, like, be in silence and not talk to anyone ever. Which sometimes that idea does appeal to me personally. But I think honestly, it's that that means that we enjoy really good, what I call good quality conversation, as in what good quality means for me.


00:11:29:07 - 00:11:45:18

Hannah

And that will be completely different to you as it will be to someone who's like super extroverted, loves to be the centre of a whole crowd of people and the conversations got a zillion people into that idea of like substance to it in a one on one conversation for an introvert. I think that that's why we love to chat.


00:11:46:09 - 00:12:19:08

Kris

Yeah, because as well, when you you sort of mentioned it as well when you click to the same wavelength, it's really easy to just talk for 3 hours and not even realise where the time has gone. And you're right. People talk about being introverted as like you've become a monk and you can't interact with anyone. I was on a retreat just recently and the facilitator talked about being an introvert, like having a set amount of spoons in your hand, and an introvert wants to, like, desperately hold on to their spoons.


00:12:19:08 - 00:12:39:24

Kris

They can't give spoons out because when they [haven’t] got spoons, they've got nothing left. And extroverts are like spoon collectors like they get energised by collecting spoons with other people. And so when an introvert runs out of spoons, they're done. That's like them. Yes. And so we're like, we've got our spoons and we're actually putting ourselves in a position where we have to give spoons to each other.


00:12:40:11 - 00:12:46:02

Kris

So that's that's interesting to me that we're jumping into the deep in a little bit. I think. I feel like.


00:12:46:17 - 00:13:13:07

Hannah

True! I think so what that makes me think about as well as I went on a trip to Auckland recently and I drove up to Auckland by myself and I think I was probably having a really good conversation, like with myself the whole way in the seven and a half drive right? I love the most enjoyable. And then I made the trip back with you and Vanessa, your wife, and it felt like that trip was like 2 hours long rather than the seven and a half hours because we were chatting the whole way.


00:13:13:07 - 00:13:31:22

Hannah

I honestly do not know where the time went And I really enjoyed both of those. And I don't know if it works like this, but as I was giving my spoons out on that trip back, I don't know whether it was easier to give them out because I knew you and Vanessa. I don't know. Could I receive a spoon from you?


00:13:32:00 - 00:13:50:01

Hannah

I'm not sure. Like, the idea of an introvert is that your energy comes from spending time alone. But I think I also, as I said in my reflection, I do actually find life being given to me or found within me from a good conversation. So maybe I'm also receiving a spoon from my conversation partner.


00:13:50:02 - 00:14:11:13

Kris

Yeah. And I wonder if that's why we're both drawn to the podcast format, because that's like a very non-threatening way of receiving a spoon from someone. And maybe subconsciously we've decided, Oh, we're going to start this podcast because we know there are others like us who maybe still get nervous about getting into a conversation and having to figure out, Oh man, what's my line?


00:14:11:22 - 00:14:17:09

Kris

I had a work do in Auckland with people who are like pro level conversationalists.


00:14:17:09 - 00:14:19:08

Hannah

Yes, that sounds like a terrifying environment.


00:14:19:08 - 00:14:43:23

Kris

Yeah, it honestly felt like that to me. And I just I was like, paralysed and my boss is actually an incredible networker, and so he just, with ease, just slipped me into a conversation I didn’t even know how it happened but he was like “oh, Kris does this” and I'm like suddenly in... you know so for some people that conversational spark that's just like so ready to blow up with them.


00:14:44:01 - 00:15:07:19

Hannah

Yes. And I wondered I mean, this is where my pondering about “is there a rhythm to this” probably comes from is I'm like, is there a formula to this? And I wonder if those people, they find the rhythm of the conversation or they create it. They set it, I don't know, really quickly, because they seem to understand how to move it along, how to draw other people in, learn and seem to just do it with ease.


00:15:07:19 - 00:15:33:08

Hannah

And so I think that that's where my wondering went is - is there a rhythm? Is there a format? Is there a structure to how a good conversation goes? Because if that's how it is, I want to find out what that is. I think where I ended up was I don't know if there is a structure, but there's those key ingredients that we also find and rhythms of like curiosity and chemistry, the energy and the beat.


00:15:34:02 - 00:15:42:02

Hannah

I suppose that is the rhythm, aligns somehow. So is there a rhythm? I'm not sure, but there's something that's similar.


00:15:42:07 - 00:16:09:02

Kris

And not to get too meta, but like we're actually having to figure out like this new conversational language, right? This is our first episode and we're actually like, probably right now in your brain, you're like, This isn't how we talk normally. And it kind of is. And part of the reason why we wanted to start this is we've had lots of good conversations and I think we both carry that sort of spark that we can sort of light off each other.


00:16:09:15 - 00:16:29:03

Kris

But I think it's subconscious as well. And some people, some people are just wired that way, you know, the family members or I'm sure you've got people who you know straight away, they're the ones who can go into a room and just be there for 5 hours. And others like me, like after an event, I'm finding the next chair to recharge to get some spoons back.


00:16:29:03 - 00:16:48:21

Hannah

I was going to say yes, my dad, we always thought that he was an introvert and potentially he is, but he is a really good conversationalist. And again, if I think about that, I think he has a lot of what Koru has and that he's really curious about people. So he's not stressing about like, Oh my gosh, what am I going to talk to this new person about next?


00:16:49:00 - 00:17:08:18

Hannah

He's just genuinely really interested in people when finding out about this person he's talking to, which I think is such a beautiful value and something that I want to build more on myself. Something that I was talking with Koru about recently when she stayed was how she's finding out more about herself and she's interested in who that is.


00:17:09:07 - 00:17:31:06

Hannah

And she's asking different questions of herself and that is changing how she's thinking about other people. She's more curious and more about other people and how they feel and what they know about themselves and how they're changing because of her own experience. And so I found that really fascinating as well, that that internal reflection is actually driving curiosity and others and the world.


00:17:31:08 - 00:17:40:23

Hannah

And it makes her really good conversationalist because, well, first of all, she's really interesting to listen to but she's equally or even more interested in listening to you.


00:17:41:08 - 00:17:54:08

Kris

Have you ever had a conversation that's been totally one sided? So, like when you're talking to someone, they're not listening to you. They're waiting for their opportunity to speak.


00:17:54:08 - 00:18:09:12

Hannah

There's a lot of people like this who and sometimes that's because they're mostly listening to or watching or interested in the device in their hand. Right? So I think that's one thing. But also there's the takers. And we've sort of explored this idea. There's the takers in conversations.


00:18:09:12 - 00:18:33:21

Kris

Yeah. So this is in my reflection and I talked about this essay and I can't remember the author's name offhand, but they talked about conversation being structured as people who are givers and people who are takers and takers talk and generalisations. They make big sweeping statements, they drop little conversational breadcrumbs and they want the conversational partner to pull at the thread with them.


00:18:34:14 - 00:18:58:17

Kris

Whereas givers are people who ask questions, and I can immediately think of someone who's like that, where they are just propelling the conversation with questions. They want to know about your job. They want to know about what the weather's like in your part of wherever you live. And it's almost like the that the takers are like, why do they keep asking me about my job?


00:18:58:17 - 00:19:09:11

Kris

It's really boring. Why do they want to know? Why don't they want to go deep with me? And that essay was really, really a bit of a peek into that invisible rhythm of conversation for me.


00:19:09:12 - 00:19:28:02

Hannah

Wow. So I also read the essay. And by the way, we’ll will put a link to end their show notes if you want to have a read and so we can properly credit the author. But what I was interested about that as well was the author felt that in a conversation, if there were two givers in the conversation, so a giver speaking with the giver, that tends to go quite well.


00:19:28:02 - 00:19:31:24

Hannah

Same with two takers, but a giver, and a taker is when the tension comes.


00:19:31:24 - 00:19:54:12

Kris

And that's where you kind of get out of sync. So it was based on some studies that the author had done or had been part of where they would pair different pairings of givers, takers, takers, takers and found that when they were matched - so a giver in a giver, an attacker and a taker - that worked really well. But it was when they were mismatched, when the conversation just wilted away and died.


00:19:55:01 - 00:20:24:03

Kris

And it sort of brought to mind the idea of being an active listner. And you mentioned it in your reflection which I think is one of those active like those rhythms of conversation when you're actively listening. That's not something that we can do naturally as well. Like we're having to practice that right now, right? So you're you're actively ingesting everything I'm saying hopefully, and me in reverse so that you can contribute meaningfully back to me.


00:20:24:09 - 00:20:40:09

Kris

But there are people in our lives who aren't that. And I'm sure for you listening, there will be someone you can think of right now who is always just waiting for their turn to talk. And it won't even be about necessarily about what your conversation is about.


00:20:40:22 - 00:20:46:02

Hannah

Yes, but I worry that I am that person and I want to be more of the giver.


00:20:46:07 - 00:20:58:23

Kris

That the important thing about this essay and the author says that it's easy to demonise one or the other, but both are equally important. Givers are the ones who rescue a dying conversation.


00:20:59:00 - 00:20:59:18

Hannah

Yes.


00:20:59:22 - 00:21:21:18

Kris

So like you run out of threads to pull out, The giver is like, well, here's a new [question], here's a new thing to latch onto. And they'll just keep they'll you know, they're like the emergency backup engine in a conversation. So neither of those camps are bad necessarily or shouldn't be demonised, but it's like so valuable to understand what camp you’re in.


00:21:21:18 - 00:21:45:18

Kris

And I immediately put myself in the taker’s column. So I love to talk in big ideas and big like... I feel like every conversation I have that I feel is important needs to change the world somehow. Yes. You know, I mean, and that's such a strange aspiration to have in a conversation, but you only get so many words to speak in your lifetime.


00:21:45:18 - 00:22:07:00

Kris

They should all matter, which is totally unrealistic. Yes. Because you have dumb conversations all the time that are equally as important and equally as life giving as the really big ones. And so I think maybe with our podcast we might sort of skirt that line a bit. Like sometimes we'll be talking about stuff that's really important and sometimes just stuff that's kind of stupid.


00:22:07:00 - 00:22:16:14

Kris

We're looking at the rhythms that are kind of invisibly sort of pulsating in the background of our lives. It's important to acknowledge that they're all different in some way.


00:22:16:17 - 00:22:47:01

Hannah

Yes. And also, maybe there's a difference between a routine, like, as we said in the intro, a mindless routine and a rhythm that is enriching and that carries you. And I would think what I have described as a good conversation is more of a rhythm than something mindless on autopilot. But of course, when you asking your partner or family in that, is there anything we need to add to the shopping list and you running through what you're planning for dinner, that doesn't have to be a life giving rhythmic conversation, that's purely function.


00:22:47:01 - 00:22:50:09

Kris

Yeah. Like what the ingredients are in your steamed chocolate pudding.


00:22:51:05 - 00:22:51:13

Hannah

Yeah.


00:22:51:14 - 00:22:52:23

Kris

Which I've never had, by the way.


00:22:52:24 - 00:22:57:00

Hannah

Okay, well, we can change that. Do you like to Taskmaster?


00:22:57:22 - 00:22:58:23

Kris

The U.K. one you said?


00:22:58:23 - 00:22:59:14

Hannah

Yes, They U.K. one.


00:23:00:00 - 00:23:01:04

Kris

Yeah, that's good. That's really good.


00:23:01:04 - 00:23:06:08

Hannah

Good. Okay, well, if you ever there on Taskmaster night, there you go. The key is I make it in a Dutch oven. Yeah.


00:23:06:11 - 00:23:14:00

Kris

So what about what if we make that, like our $10 a month Patreon tier? We’ll release the recipe!


00:23:14:16 - 00:23:33:06

Hannah

So actually, this recipe has been through many iterations and I had to go back to the source material to find the best way to make it - my mother's recipe book from when she was, I think in her like early twenties. And I had to try and figure out on the ripped pages and the faded writing what was the way that this was intended to be made...


00:23:33:11 - 00:23:52:01

Hannah

Because everyone in my family makes it differently and I was trying to follow their instructions and it was crap. So I've gone back to the source and made my own version from that and it is so good and maybe sorry, just going back because I can't help myself. Maybe that is also what makes good conversation for me is going to be different than what makes good conversation...


00:23:52:01 - 00:24:10:23

Hannah

...for anyone else. And it's helpful to go to the source material to see what are the key ingredients, but then you have to make it your own. And also, as I'm thinking more about this, a rhythm for songs, they're all different, right? And a conversation - my conversation with you is going to have a so different rhythm, than my conversation tomorrow night with Hannah or with Koru or whoever.


00:24:10:24 - 00:24:14:10

Hannah

Yeah, those key ingredients, they show up in different ways.


00:24:14:19 - 00:24:35:08

Kris

Well, like I just saw, just as we were prepping for this, you and Vanessa were just straight onto the track with ceramics, you know, like you've no chance. There's no chance I'm getting in to that lane and racing at the same speed as you guys are. Because you've got that wavelength, right? You've got that shared rhythm and understanding of like...


00:24:35:13 - 00:24:43:14

Kris

...what a good like ceramics and how can you, like, decorate your house with them and all that would go great there, I'm like, It's a plate, you know? Yes.


00:24:43:18 - 00:24:57:24

Hannah

And also this is like an album that we're revisiting, you know, like we know this these songs. We know how this goes. And so we are revisiting it. It wasn't new, but it's like a familiar favourite for us to be able to talk about and show and discover new ceramics.


00:24:58:00 - 00:25:24:15

Kris

Yeah, Yeah. So I definitely can feel the greatest hits kind of mentality come in. Right? And we've we talked a bit about how conversation is like music. I'm a musician and I one of the little peeks behind the curtain, so to speak, with conversation is actually how common it is to hear sort of a type of music and conversation as even like in just the physical way we talk, right?


00:25:25:02 - 00:25:48:04

Kris

So some people will deliver the words like I'm doing now, like pauses and gaps and like emphasis and then some will talk really fast when they're really excited [and] their voice modulates. Like those are all musical devices and our voices are musical instruments in that sense, do you know what I mean?


00:25:48:05 - 00:25:48:17

Hannah

Yes.


00:25:49:14 - 00:26:17:04

Kris

So that was a little peek behind the curtain because I like I said, I try and avoid getting into a conversation unnecessarily. There's this music behind conversations that I wasn't really even listening for. That became really obvious once I started actively listening for it. And I like the way you put it that it's kind of like conversations like this album. I think what you were looking for is the phrase “concept album”.


00:26:17:21 - 00:26:18:12

Hannah

Thank you.


00:26:18:12 - 00:26:25:18

Kris

Yes. Which is like written around a theme. I could recommend some... a few great ones.


00:26:26:03 - 00:26:28:06

Hannah

But I think we should genuinely put those somewhere.


00:26:28:09 - 00:26:36:00

Kris

We could I could do like a top 10 concept albums list or something. Yes, listicle. We could be a listicle podcast on the side as well.


00:26:36:06 - 00:26:37:18

Hannah

Listicle. Is that a word?


00:26:37:21 - 00:26:40:02

Kris

You know, when they do like top ten.


00:26:40:02 - 00:26:41:00

Hannah

Article, and a list


00:26:41:00 - 00:26:42:15

Kris

Yes, an article list but it’s...


00:26:42:22 - 00:26:43:05

Hannah

Yeah.


00:26:43:07 - 00:27:08:08

Kris

Yeah top ten top ten concept albums. In production as well, sometimes you know you have a song seamlessly fade into the next song that's like an effect right. I've produced a couple of albums where I've done that and the artist actually chooses where to put that, that fade, so they can just cut the song off or for artistic effect, they can go straight into the next song.


00:27:08:20 - 00:27:26:17

Kris

And that's usually a choice that the artist is made. And maybe there's parallels there to how we choose to like, flow in our conversation. Sometimes you just think of a conversation, right, and like you're looking for a way to wind it up. Have you... you know, you've been part of a conversation where you just suddenly like, you know, start looking, like physically looking around the room.


00:27:26:24 - 00:27:27:11

Hannah

Yes!


00:27:27:12 - 00:27:28:21

Kris

How can I get out of this?


00:27:28:22 - 00:28:07:05

Hannah

Okay, well, I've learned a really good strategy for how to, like, move a conversation topic. This is kind of like, [an] abrupt move, which I think if we're continuing with this metaphor, is like, you know, when you listen to a CD in the early 2000’s and maybe you're listening to a concept album, but as the CD moves to the next track, there's the little pause between. I think this is what this is, is I say, if I want to completely change the topic, I say: “...okay, I'm just indicating to change lanes right now”, and it actually works out because the person's a little bit surprised about the turn of phrase and goes, Oh, okay, let's...


00:28:07:05 - 00:28:07:16

Hannah

go!


00:28:07:16 - 00:28:25:21

Kris

Yeah, that's again, that invisible sort of underneath stuff that comes [out]. It's like you see it in social situations, right? What's the socially acceptable way that no one wants to actually say. Right? You want to say like, “can you not put your feet up on my seat in the plane” or something? Yes. You just expect people to know it.


00:28:25:21 - 00:28:57:15

Kris

And that stuff fascinates me. Unwritten social rules and constructs and I think conversations is one of them. The way we talk to each other. And unfortunately, we're seeing sort of a breakdown in people actually having discourse, having a conversation where they're actually actively listening to each other. I think it's really sad and I think a consequence of an instant world where things are so quick, you know, instant messaging and real time communication has changed the way we talk to each other.


00:28:58:03 - 00:29:10:01

Kris

So even just expecting an answer straight away, you know, there was a time where the only way you could reach someone was by their landline. And if they weren't there, you didn't talk to them.


00:29:10:02 - 00:29:13:00

Hannah

Do you wish we went back to that era?


00:29:14:08 - 00:29:29:19

Kris

I can see value in not always getting the answer that you want straight away, especially if you're mad. Have ever been really heated in an office or at work and gone to write the email and that can just go straight away, you know?


00:29:29:22 - 00:29:31:02

Hannah

Yes, I have received a few.


00:29:31:02 - 00:29:48:15

Kris

... I’m peeved off at my boss or I'm peeved off at something and there's no like social structure that gives you a cool down period. You can get that person straight away and nail into them. Yeah. Like surely that's helpful I think that would a so many conflicts.


00:29:48:20 - 00:29:59:04

Hannah

Totally! See I want to go back even further than the landline because I love mail and like post. It takes a lot of energy to write an angry letter, right?


00:29:59:04 - 00:29:59:19

Kris

Absolutely.


00:29:59:20 - 00:30:21:11

Hannah

And you can't just you know, it's going to take a long time for them to get it as well, which you can still send an angry letter. And then you just have to wait longer in your regret for the recipient to receive it. [Kris]: I love that. [Hannah]: But yeah, I think so this is what we're talking about really, is you're thinking about social constructs and and how we interact in the world.


00:30:21:18 - 00:30:43:17

Hannah

My idea of like how I just love the intentionality of writing a letter, this is really what we want to be talking about with rhythms, right? Is we all have routines in our lives to some degree. Even if we don't think we like routines, there will be habits that we have in our lives and they can be mindless and on autopilot or they can be infused with intentionality.


00:30:43:23 - 00:31:05:15

Hannah

And I genuinely think that that brings so much richness. I think you have to be present. I think you have to slow down. I think you think a lot about how something makes you feel and how you want to feel. But then it's what are the constructs that I can put around to make that happen? So I think this has been a really good outline of the rhythm of conversations, but also just the idea of rhythms.


00:31:05:15 - 00:31:28:13

Kris

Yeah, and about us specifically, like this podcast is one of those little constructs we're putting around because we, we chat a lot when we, when we get together and often it's like you have these really meaningful conversations that just sort of disappear into the wind a little bit. Yeah. And you kind of wish I wish I could share that with more people or I wish more people could hear this.


00:31:29:01 - 00:31:46:23

Kris

And like, fortunately, we live in an age where podcasting is a great way to do that. And so for us it's a really good fit and I'm hoping one of the outcomes of this podcast is that we can help people maybe put a like a little pin in some of those things, some of those invisible rhythms that they're seeing in their lives.


00:31:46:23 - 00:32:05:24

Kris

And maybe I'm going to acknowledge that this exists in my life, you know, the rhythm of going to work or dumb things like brushing your teeth, that's not dumb. You should brush your teeth. But like these little things that don't seem important. But if you don't brush your teeth every day, you know, there's decay.


00:32:06:10 - 00:32:06:18

Hannah

Yeah.


00:32:07:02 - 00:32:17:10

Kris

And it's really important that we recognise these rhythms in our lives and not treat them as small but as significant and sacred almost.


00:32:17:10 - 00:32:24:21

Hannah

Yes. And ask how could that bring that richness or become a favourite part of the day. That's what I think a rhythm can do.


00:32:25:02 - 00:32:39:21

Kris

Yeah, it brings meaning to your life in a way where you didn't see meaning before, which I think is super valuable. And that's something that I would love for people to get from listening to us kind of figure it out as well.


00:32:40:11 - 00:32:59:10

Hannah

Yes. And I think hopefully like us having this conversation, you know, our listeners, hopefully you'll be thinking of your own thoughts and ideas, even stories to add to what we've said. And that will be sparking ideas of rhythms that you want to change or add into your life. And genuinely, we would really love to hear about those.


00:32:59:15 - 00:33:17:23

Kris

Yeah, definitely. I think this isn't going to be like a one way conversation with whoever chooses to listen to us, which we hope will be some people, but it's just as much for us as it is for them. But we, we want to make this a two way conversation and we live again in an era where that's totally possible.


00:33:18:10 - 00:33:40:23

Kris

So if there's a rhythm in your life that, you know, would be helpful to unpack and the car on the way to work or where we're going with Kris and Hannah on The RHYTHMS Podcast, and we'd love to talk about it because the, you know, more people in the room is always better in terms of a diversity of opinion and thought and ideas, right?


00:33:40:23 - 00:33:47:19

Kris

Because it can't just be us talking at people. It's a listening, actively listening to what people are saying to us as well.


00:33:48:18 - 00:34:12:09

Hannah

So I kind of feel like the final track of this album is sort of coming to a close. So I have a question for you, Kris. Okay. So in light of this conversation that we've had, this rhythmic conversation that we've had about rhythm and conversation, is there a rhythm in your life maybe, or a way of conversing that you want to change or add to this week?


00:34:12:09 - 00:34:13:14

Hannah

Something you want to try out?


00:34:15:07 - 00:34:48:23

Kris

There are a lot, I think, again, I need to be actively listening to what's happening around me because in my reflection I wrote something around the idea that if you don't take an active part in establishing your rhythms, then life just happens to you. You're just a bystander to your life. And so you can actually have a part in identifying and establishing and practicing rhythms. One that's on top for me at the moment is I am on a weight loss journey.


00:34:49:07 - 00:35:13:11

Kris

And so a rhythm that I've had to establish has been making sure that I'm eating at a calorie deficit every day. So I'm eating 2000 calories a day. And it's been working really well. But that's a rhythm that was just so difficult at the start and learning about food and about energy and about what that does to your body.


00:35:13:11 - 00:35:38:11

Kris

I just got my meal plan and I've got a 1900 calorie level now, so I'm losing 100. So that's like a little change. Yes. But it has lots of flow-on effects because now I can eat 100 calories less to reach my goal. So that's a rhythm for me that's going to be really on top and timely, but something that is going to literally add value to my life, it’s going to make me healthier.


00:35:38:13 - 00:35:42:17

Hannah

I'm looking forward to hearing your reflection that may come about this.


00:35:42:17 - 00:35:47:15

Kris

Yes, I’m feeling like the seeds of another episode in there somewhere.


00:35:47:16 - 00:35:56:07

Hannah

No? Yeah. But I suppose I'm like actively listening to you and I'm genuinely interested in how that is going to change. I'm sure that you're going to develop rhythms that's going to support that.


00:35:56:12 - 00:36:13:05

Kris

Yeah, well, yes, and you have to. And that's the thing. Sometimes life just forces you into making changes and those changes are things that are sometimes really hard and sometimes are really easy. And I guess we want to help people figure that out or. At least just go along with them on that.


00:36:13:15 - 00:36:39:17

Hannah

Yeah, this is a reminder to please share with us what's resonated with you about this conversation. Are there any rhythms that you are now wondering about introducing, adding to your life to bring richness to help carry you along, or maybe to approach a change like Kris has got coming up in his life? Or what are your key ingredients in a good conversation and how does a good conversation like the concept album for you?


00:36:39:21 - 00:36:40:14

Hannah

We'd love to hear it.


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