Episode 19: Makers vs Managers


Oh no! The holidays are over and it's time to head back to work. What if there was a new way to approach your work schedule to make your life happier?! Listen in as Hannah and Kris discuss the difference between makers and managers and how understanding that could make a world of difference for you and your work life in 2024.


This transcript was generated automatically and may not be 100 percent accurate.

Episode transcript:

00:00:00 Hannah 

Welcome to The Rhythms podcast. My name is Hannah. 

00:00:03 Kris 

And my name's. 

00:00:04 Kris 

Kris, this is a podcast about exploring the rhythms, patterns and habits that bring joy and add richness to our everyday lives. 

00:00:12 Hannah 

From daily habits to embracing the changing seasons, it's not about mindless routines, but patterns with purpose. It's about making something special out of something. 

00:00:24 Kris 

If you're someone who wants to move beyond just being more efficient or productive and instead find ways to infuse your days with small, familiar moments that matter, then you've found two new friends with the same goal. 

00:00:37 Hannah 

Every episode listen in as we share a reflection on the role of rhythms in our. 

00:00:42 Hannah 

Lives join our conversation as we unpack this idea further and then spend a moment with us considering how that rhythm could shape or add richness to our lives today. 

00:00:55 Hannah 

This is episode 19, makers versus managers. 

00:01:01 Hannah 

Well, we're here already. Christmas Day tech. New Years. Been and gone. Summer holidays almost over. 

00:01:13 Hannah 

Which means the return to work and normal life is in your very near future. If it's not already happened, so are. Or were you ready? Ready to jump back in to begin another year of work. School taxing the children. 

00:01:34 Hannah 

Insert appropriate daily hustle activity here. 

00:01:38 Hannah 

If you're not ready and instead wish for a few more days or weeks of lazy, relaxed fun days with your loved ones all wonderful self, then you're in good company these last few days of the holidays are like the Sunday afternoon of the year. 

00:01:56 Hannah 

Our time off has gone too quickly. 

00:01:59 Hannah 

And the dry Monday. 

00:01:59 Hannah 

That is, 2024 is looming and the. 

00:02:04 Hannah 

Of us. 

00:02:05 Hannah 

And the majority of us, while we're just not really for that Monday schedule and energy, but what if there was a way to feel more ready organized even in foods if you tuned into our episodes at the end of last year, you'd have heard Chris and I discussing how we felt like we'd been running in terms of our work and life. 

00:02:28 Hannah 

Oh yeah, you may have felt the same. 

00:02:32 Hannah 

We were reminded in those weeks and days why rhythms are so important. It truly was my rhythms, carrying me through much of that time. My morning ritual of coffee, quiet time walks with the dog and podcasts on the way to work. The evening buzz of playing with the kiddos. 

00:02:51 Hannah 

My family gathering for dinner and then finishing up with a blessing. They kept me breathing. They ensured I encountered simple, everyday, joyful moments and they helped me get grounded, be present and self reflect. 

00:03:11 Hannah 

So yes, when I look back at 2023, the overall sense I have is. 

00:03:16 Hannah 

Running Marathon after marathon. Now I don't really get the wrong idea. I'm not saying that running is a bad thing. In fact, rubbing is very rhythmic, so it seems I'm not a runner. In fact, I hear that running can even be a really enjoyable thing. 

00:03:33 Hannah 

And it's certainly preferable to drowning, which is another word that some of us may have used to describe how we felt in our work last year. 

00:03:43 Hannah 

You know, there were a couple of times during 2023 when I felt like I was close to drowning in it. Like my head was underwater and there was no catching my breath. I had to find some ways to be able to keep bringing my best Hannah to work and not just for the sake of my work or employer, but for me. 

00:04:02 Hannah 

I want to be a person who most days experiences joy in all aspects of my life, even work. 

00:04:13 Hannah 

I'm really lucky. I have an excellent manager and the two of us found the perfect opportunity when I was increasing my work hours and workload to discuss some strategies, some rhythms that would help me to do this well to ensure the best Hannah could show up to and. 

00:04:32 Hannah 

Leaves work each day. Who knew that taking on more would be the catalyst for getting more sane in the hustle of work? 

00:04:43 Hannah 

So what did that look like? How did I find what worked for me to answer that, let me take you back a couple of years ago when I heard Emily P Freeman at Kay, the sole minimalist talk on your podcast, the next right thing about the ideas of managers versus makers. I immediately gravitated to this idea. 

00:05:03 Hannah 

Quickly, self identifying as a maker, especially my personal interests, but also in the type of work I tend to do. 

00:05:11 Hannah 

What Emily was really discussing was the way that we use our time at work and whether it's helping or hindering us this idea she expanded on originates from Paul Graham, who published an essay titled Make his schedule manager schedule as a programmer. The author identifies as a maker. 

00:05:31 Hannah 

His primary work is to create. 

00:05:34 Hannah 

He outlines how those of us who are makers are sometimes appreciated to work, to manage their schedules, which is usually the exact opposite of what we need to do our work well. 

00:05:46 Hannah 

The manager's schedule tends to be broken up into hour long blocks. 

00:05:51 Hannah 

Perfectly suited to days filled with meetings, phone calls, coffee catchups, etc. 

00:05:56 Hannah 

The manager's kitchen is entirely appropriate for managers. Bosses whose work is to manage people to participate in, and lead meetings to take phone calls, respond to emails and such. However, those of us whose work primarily is to make and create know that individual hour long blocks of time. 

00:06:16 Hannah 

Aren't very. 

00:06:16 Hannah 

Helpful. They're barely enough time to get started on a project, which is why Graham suggests that makers made best work in half day blocks of time. But sometimes between meetings and appointments. An hour here an hour, there is all we get, Graham says. When you're operating on the makers schedule, meetings are a disaster, a single meeting. 

00:06:37 Hannah 

And blow a whole afternoon by breaking it into two pieces, each too small to do anything harder. Plus you have to remember to go to the meeting. That's it. Meetings are pricey for makers because they restrict the time available for our real. 

00:06:52 Hannah 

And because attending a meeting totally changes the mode in which you work, and switching back into the headspace required to write, create, make design isn't as easy as flipping the switch. So what do we do? Well, Graham suggests we could avoid meetings. 

00:07:13 Hannah 

Batch them together or schedule them at times of day when our energy levels are locked. 

00:07:18 Hannah 

One of Graham's personal work rhythms was to have office hours at the end of each day. 

00:07:24 Hannah 

And he was disciplined and able to only schedule meetings during those times so they didn't interrupt his creative work. 

00:07:32 Hannah 

As I reflected on these ideas, there were more than what I've been able to share, so I really encourage you to go read the short essay. 

00:07:38 Hannah 

And ponder yourself. It's a really interesting read. 

00:07:42 Hannah 

I realized that yes, my current work requires deep and creative thinking, but pulling of ideas, problem solving, reflection, drafting, reworking, and editing work that takes time, long stretches of time. I also am required. 

00:08:02 Hannah 

To participate in meetings and these meetings are helpful. But like Graham says, they are pricey, so some strategies and compromises were needed. My solutions, of course, rhythm. 

00:08:16 Hannah 

Rhythms of work they can hold me and carry me and help me get ready. 


To go. 

00:08:23 Hannah 

Firstly, themed days I've been able to batch my different types and modes of work and areas of thinking into different days. For example design day Wednesdays. 

00:08:36 Hannah 

All the graphic design work that I have today gets scheduled for Wednesday and I'm finding my mind is actually starting to anticipate. 

00:08:43 Hannah 

Now, as are my colleagues, the ones who need stuff signed once a fortnight, I have a relaxed, delicious staff meeting on a Wednesday, but I found that being able to get started on some design work prior to the meeting and then slipping back into it, following works on days which tend to be heavy on meetings. I've scheduled the more. 

00:09:04 Hannah 

Administrative tasks of my work and Mondays, while therefore writing work, because I'm not interrupted on a Monday as I work from home. 

00:09:14 Hannah 

And because that fresh new start of the week, energy is helpful. 

00:09:19 Hannah 

For me to write. 

00:09:21 Hannah 

So you can see as I'm able, I'm intentionally shaping my schedule to support my making work. 

00:09:27 Hannah 

I've also been able to shift to starting work earlier in. 

00:09:30 Hannah 

The day. 

00:09:32 Hannah 

This sometimes means that I can get a couple hours work done before I'm interrupted, even by conversation. 

00:09:37 Hannah 

As an early bird, this works for me. I can get so much done during those early morning hours. 

00:09:45 Hannah 

But for someone else, perhaps it could look like a later start, so you have some uninterrupted time later in the day, or even a shift in environment, or maybe headphone time. Whatever can give you a chunk of uninterrupted work time. 

00:10:00 Hannah 

You know, these are small changes, but they're helping me develop a work rhythm that enables me to be productive and leave work still breathing and satisfied. 

00:10:12 Hannah 

Plus, I'm still able to work alongside and with those who function best on a manager's schedule, which is a real life necessity for most of us. 

00:10:22 Hannah 

So what about you? Does the thought of returning to work make you start hyperventilating as you consider the chaos about to ensue? If so, I invite you to consider your work and whether your schedule is helping or hindering it. Are there are some small shifts, some rhythms that you could employ? 

00:10:42 Hannah 

To make you more productive, to help you run. 

00:10:46 Hannah 

Enjoy it, or if the way you work is outside of your control, are there some rhythms for pre or post work that could add richness to your day? Or if the way you work is outside of your control? Are there some rhythms for prey or post work that could add richness to your? 

00:11:01 Hannah 

Day, I guess what I'm saying is the giant Monday that is normal. 

00:11:07 Hannah 

Life is coming whether we like it or not. Stop. 

00:11:12 Hannah 

What are you? 

00:11:12 Hannah 

Gonna do about it. 

00:11:15 Kris 

And I love that idea. What I actually love is completely the wrong word. I completely despise the idea that there is a massive Monday heading towards me and it's not. It's not just a normal Monday where people look, don't look forward to those Mondays, but it's a giant post holiday post. 

00:11:37 Hannah 

Mountain I know well. Yeah. I feel like that's what it feels like. So when this episode comes out, Chris, I have like, 2 days left of my summer holidays before I go back to work. And I know that I will be feeling how I feel every Sunday afternoon. I'm like, oh, my gosh, what did I do the time of the weekend? 

00:11:56 Hannah 

It's right now and it's pretty much Monday already and like I'm not ready and I know that that's how I'm really feeling. And so I was thinking and I was like that. 

00:12:03 Hannah 

Is that same energy of like, Oh my gosh. OK, the return to work after three weeks off or whatever I've had off. 

00:12:11 Hannah 

That feels huge and like it'll be great that just that like that little, that breath that you have to take before you go into it. It's like often a heavy one. And then once you're in it, it's OK generally, right. 

00:12:13 Kris 

Let's magnify. 

00:12:25 Hannah 

We we like our jobs. 


I I think. 

00:12:26 Kris 

So, well, I mean, it's probably pretty crap if you don't like your job because you've had like the extended leave away. So I just commiserations for those listeners who are dreading going back to their job. Sorry. 

00:12:41 Kris 

But that's one of those rhythms. They run our lives, and our society is structured around work and how we fit into that is really like a common human. 

00:12:54 Kris 

Element of our existence. 

00:12:55 Hannah 

Mm-hmm. Yeah, I. 

00:12:56 Kris 

It's not, not necessarily a bad thing. 

00:12:59 Hannah 

Yeah. And I was gonna say I think that you can have like, a really great job and still the thought of going back to work, there's something about it. It's just like hard. I don't know if it's. 

00:13:07 Hannah 

That way is that like a choice of what we're going to do, being taken away from us or I know, like, like legitimately for some people, it's just having to. 

00:13:14 Hannah 

Get out of bed. 

00:13:15 Hannah 

At a certain times. 

00:13:16 Hannah 

Really difficult that has like I'm an early bird, but yeah. 

00:13:18 Kris 

Yeah, there's lots. It's lots of it's practical stuff like, yeah, I have. I have to change. Like, I've been sleeping in. I've been really enjoying that. And now I actually have to get up early. It's super practical. But it's so like it's such a change. Yeah. 

00:13:33 Kris 

Especially once you get used. 

00:13:34 Kris 

To it, it's kind of like when we came. 

00:13:36 Kris 

Out of like the big COVID isolation and had to go back into like the workforce, although that was kind of interesting too, because it like forced us to not do those things for so long that we maybe started to earn those like really predictable work things because we had a gap from them. We had a really decent break. 

00:13:55 Hannah 

Yeah, I think like. 

00:13:56 Hannah 

Often on the weekend, we're happy to like maybe just go and see different people like, not the people that we work with when hang out with like friends or family, whatever. But yeah, you're right. Like during cover times was like Ohh no, I'm ready to get out of this house and like, go and see some different people and do some different kinds of things and use my brain in different. 

00:14:12 Hannah 

Yes. So yes, I'm with you there, but I think yeah, with the holidays that we have all just experienced, we've like switched out of our normal work routines and that I don't know about you, but because I always feel like I'm hurrying at work like there's too much that needs to be done. And so to have a break from that is so nice. And I think that. 

00:14:33 Hannah 

Me. That's what I always feel like a little bit antsy about going back into is, like, the never ending To Do List. And actually, like I said in my reflection, I actually manage and and do quite well there. But still I enjoy the. 

00:14:49 Hannah 

Break from it. 

00:14:49 Kris 

Reminds me of. I love to squeeze in my office quotes here, but like somehow I managed by Michael Scott, who's writing his own self help book on how. 

00:14:56 Kris 

To manage, yeah. 

00:14:57 Kris 

But it's like how to manage. 

00:14:59 Kris 

An office. 

00:15:01 Kris 

Great. Great name for a book. But we're talking. We're talking a little bit about that concept of being a maker versus a manager. And work is a really good way to approach that. I think we we felt like that was a really not abstract way of approaching this idea of of being a like managing. 

00:15:20 Kris 

This is making. 

00:15:22 Kris 

But like, give us the Cliff notes of that. 

00:15:24 Hannah 

You know, a lot of us we are creating or producing or making, whether that's writing or designing whatever it is, you know, like our work is to make stuff and for probably most of us, we can't do that. Just like on the fly, right? Like there's probably a maybe subconscious process that we go through like. 

00:15:43 Hannah 

Get organ ready and get all the thoughts aligned already. 

00:15:48 Hannah 

Writers to do that work, and then we have to like problem solve a way through it and rework stuff where, you know, like, this isn't something you can just sort of like jump in and out of. Yeah, but often that's what we are required to do because we are managed by our bosses and that's. 

00:16:06 Hannah 

That's sort of what our bosses end up doing because their work is quite different from ours. A lot of the time they are going in and out of meetings, they're responding to emails, they are catching up with other. 

00:16:17 Hannah 

You know, like they work so different. So to them, when you think about like a diary or a calendar, it's always organized into those little hour long blocks. And so often a meeting is like. 

00:16:27 Hannah 

One of. 

00:16:27 Hannah 

Those blocks or are one of those blocks is perfect length of time for catching up on the emails or whatever it is. 

00:16:35 Hannah 

But for makers like, we need lots of those blogs I probably. 

00:16:38 Hannah 

And I actually do what the essay says, yes, is like, I want to block out like, three or four of those when I'm creating, like, a newsletter or something, you know, and they would have actually been a bunch of work done before then. But the actual, like, producing of that news there, I can't just do one hour there, one hour there. I need to get into a flow and a rhythm, and I need a lot of those. 

00:16:59 Hannah 

Chunks of time. 

00:17:00 Hannah 

And that becomes really difficult if a manager's schedule is sort of being imposed on us and and that could be because a meeting gets tracked in there. So if I have a meeting at like. 

00:17:11 Hannah 

9:00 in the morning and then another one at 1:00 in the afternoon. That potentially doesn't give me very many hours in a row to do real my real work of making and and so that if that happens consistently, that's a problem, because how do I do my real? 

00:17:26 Hannah 

Yeah. So that's for what it's about, really. 

00:17:27 Kris 

Yeah, that's this is by this idea of real work. Hey, like, this is like, cause I think everything is work in some way. What occurred to me when you were talking and is that I'm at a funny age where I'm kind of in between now. Yeah. Like I'm I'm kind of moving along in my career and. 

00:17:42 Hannah 


00:17:47 Kris 

I I've spent a lot of my career in that maker mould. 

00:17:50 Kris 

You know, being the person who creates things creates value for the organization, creates items, creates things. And I wonder if this is an age thing. As you get more used to receiving and stewarding responsibility, is that you move into more of like a caretaking or a managing or a, you know, and I think I'm, I'm kind of in between. 

00:18:12 Kris 

And it's interesting because. 

00:18:14 Kris 

I can see both sides of the field now I can see some of the challenges of being a maker when you have a a manager over the top of you and being a manager when you don't have the right people or you know the right people executing on your vision and it's just like really interesting coordinated dance of getting the right people. 

00:18:36 Kris 

And I think that's why lots of organizations who do really well have figured out that balance of we've got the right people making the strategic decisions. 

00:18:46 Kris 

We've also got the right people, equally right people executing the vision. 

00:18:52 Kris 

And so it's interesting just, you know, getting on and use and just seeing like both sides of that field really highlights to me how important both sets of. 

00:19:02 Kris 

Those people, managers and makers, and by the way, we're not trying to start. 

00:19:06 Hannah 

Something up here? No, totally, you know. 

00:19:10 Hannah 

We're not exactly. 

00:19:12 Hannah 

And yet, we totally need both and I think just where it becomes tricky is because. 

00:19:18 Hannah 

Managers like off. 

00:19:20 Hannah 

When in terms of like authority, a bit more authoritative, they can without thinking about it, impose the schedule that suits them on people that it doesn't suit, and so us being aware of that is really helpful because like I described in the reflection I was able to go to my boss and go, OK, if you want like the best Hannah showing up. 

00:19:41 Hannah 

And doing the sort of work that we're talking about me doing now that I'm going to go to full time. 

00:19:45 Hannah 

Yeah, this is what I'm gonna need. But yeah. So I think just like being aware of it and then figuring out what are the workarounds so that we can do it and it's never going to be that we can just be in a little office by ourselves, never be interrupted doing work like that's not real life. We're interacting with people on different types of schedules. And so there's compromise. But yeah, I guess if we're talking about rhythm and being in rhythm. 

00:20:07 Hannah 

Hopefully we can have our own work rhythms that suit us. 

00:20:10 Hannah 

But then we also have to like be in rhythm with the people around us as well. So being able to figure that out, how do we do that? And some of us will be able to do that to more of a degree, you know, a high degree than others. 

00:20:21 Kris 

You know, there's a there's an interesting crossover between this episode and episode 16 where we talked about traditions being something for groups of people. 

00:20:30 Kris 

And it's it just occurred to me that that's also something that happens in the. 

00:20:34 Kris 

Workplace is that suddenly you've got lots of repeated rhythms, like the weekly staff meeting is a repaired rhythm. There is a a tradition in the sense that it's repeated and it as is for purpose, you know, you have that every week and you've got groups of people. And there's this whole rhythm. 

00:20:50 Kris 

Do it right. I don't know how people staff meetings go, but you know you might share. You might go around the the table and share. 

00:20:56 Hannah 

What's happening? Or yeah, that's right. And so how do we have our rhythms that work for us, that work with and for other people as well and I think. 

00:21:07 Hannah 

Like communication becomes really important, compromise comes really becomes really important and even just this idea of working with what you've got becomes really important. Like there's some things that we just can't change. And I think that's probably something with rhythms as well. There's some things we just can't change. There's some things we just have to do. 

00:21:27 Hannah 

So what are we going to? 

00:21:29 Kris 

Do about it. I I don't know why this is really weird, but I immediately went to in 2024. I'm gonna like clean all the cups in the. 

00:21:38 Kris 

Cupboard at work. 

00:21:41 Kris 

I don't know why I went there and then I then I went. Maybe I'll get a different brand of. 

00:21:45 Kris 

Than some coffee. Oh yes, yeah. 

00:21:47 Kris 

So Rowena, if you're listening, maybe we'll switch from the Nest Cafe to like something else. I I drink instant coffee at work, and it's like you get used to it. But why not have something that you really like, want. 

00:22:00 Hannah 

I like that even like and you know that I love the seasons like having seasonal drinks. So like, maybe in the summer months you drink cold brew coffee, you know, or like a more summary drink and then it becomes water and the weather turns, then you shift to some. 

00:22:16 Hannah 

Anything else, and it could be something like Epley, because Apple is. 

00:22:19 Hannah 

An autumn fruit or. 

00:22:21 Hannah 

I don't know, you know, like, yeah. 

00:22:22 Kris 

Or if you're. 

00:22:22 Kris 

In an office like. 

00:22:24 Kris 

Maybe changing the way your desk is. 

00:22:26 Kris 

And that's not just an office. 

00:22:28 Kris 

Thing as well. 

00:22:28 Kris 

I really like to change the environment in which I like am in existing and so if I've got a space at home, maybe change up where things are or try different ways or different. 

00:22:39 Kris 

We have a bit of a geek in terms of my text, so like changing around maybe get a new monitor or freshening up some bits and pieces or maybe even like I don't know, getting some different lighting. It's it's just about finding places, little places where you can win and work as one of those kind of battlegrounds. 

00:22:59 Kris 

There we are faced with this routines and. 

00:23:03 Kris 

That too directly. 

00:23:05 Kris 

I think affects people's ability to function as a maker or a manager. Cause I think if your environment's not very good, if it's really. 

00:23:14 Kris 

Hiring. If it's a struggle to go to work and to be the best version of you. And again, I'm talking because I'm. I'm talking from my experience as someone who's vocationally driven, like work as something I I work in a field that I'm I'm driven in terms of my values, but for some people work as a paycheck and so they don't care. They're just trying to. They're just trying to get through the day. 

00:23:37 Kris 

And make their hours and go home and and work to live, not live to work. 

00:23:43 Hannah 

What I sort of realized as I was writing this reflection was and when work goes well, we leave work. 

00:23:52 Hannah 

True, you know, and so, like, I don't want to be the best tender, just so that I'm more productive at work. I want to be the best tenant who also leaves work. And so I can't be drowning and like, not really men like surviving it work because then, grumpy, exhausted, worn out Hannah as who goes home or who's. 

00:24:12 Hannah 

Are there on the weekend, you know, but when I can like get into that rhythm and be running and yes, I'm working. 

00:24:17 Hannah 

Hard, but I'm running. I'm in rhythm and I'm enjoying it metaphorically. I don't really enjoy real running. Then a happier hammer goes home and so I think that that's why it matters, even if you're not someone who needs to like, love work. What if there's a little shift that you can make so that a happier or better you? 

00:24:38 Hannah 

Leaves work. 

00:24:39 Kris 

It's crazy just how much time we spend at work. There's there's a lot of opinions about work and the effect that it has on people and just putting my sociology hat on work is an interesting concept, and it's really funny with structured society around it. 

00:24:55 Kris 

Right. We've made the rhythm of humanity. 

00:24:58 Kris 

Revolve around work. This is an inevitability unless you know you've got special circumstances or whatever is that work is going to be part of our lives. 

00:25:07 Kris 

And it's an inevitability in that we should try and make these moments that. 

00:25:14 Kris 

Could be simply, you know, just trying to run out the clock like it's such a shame to waste our lives or to have that perception of wasting our lives, air quotes at work. 

00:25:27 Kris 

When we could be actively trying to make it meaningful, even if we don't feel like it is meaningful and I think that's where we're trying to angle here with this, the rhythm of of finding your place in, in work is. 

00:25:40 Kris 

How can we make what we do every day more meaningful? 

00:25:45 Hannah 

Is this going to make me sound like really nerdy and? 

00:25:50 Hannah 

I love looking at like how. 

00:25:53 Hannah 

Other people structure their work like their schedules or what other workplaces and stuff look like. What about you? Like you know, the classic one. 

00:25:59 Hannah 

Is Google right? 

00:26:00 Kris 

Yeah. Yeah. Well, there's like, this whole genre of, like short videos. It's like, check out my my daily schedule. And it was like real classic like editing. 

00:26:07 Hannah 

Yes, true. 

00:26:10 Kris 

The quick editing. 

00:26:11 Kris 

It's like 630 get up workout, go to work in the tech industry. They have like really unique work structures. Google. Yeah, like you mentioned have these really interesting like free expression sort of slots where you can just go off and do projects that you. 

00:26:26 Hannah 

Could just do on your own. Yeah, that's right. And like, I think what's really interesting about that like. 

00:26:31 Hannah 

I'm not potentially gonna get that. You know my boss or whoever just sets up a structure like that for me and. 

00:26:38 Hannah 

However, when I like really examine what I realize is, ah, I like that they give them open time like, and a chunk of it to, like drink. And so then I go, OK, why does that really appeal to me? Ah, because I'm a creative and I like ideas, and I like to think of something new and original. 

00:26:57 Hannah 

And I realise that that takes time, and so the fact that they get Fridays or whatever it is off to work on projects, I'm not going to take that specific practical thing. But the idea of finding chunks of time to just dream and innovate. 

00:27:14 Hannah 

It I can take that idea. You know, like that more broad idea. And I think the guy who wrote this essay, he talks about that as we don't look at other people's work days to like totally replicate their schedule. But we look at them and realize aha, OK different types of work require different types of schedules. 

00:27:17 Kris 

Yeah, yeah. 

00:27:35 Hannah 

And that can give us ideas for then what might work for. 

00:27:37 Hannah 

Us because we're all. 

00:27:39 Hannah 

Unique to us roles, even if I had the same role as someone else like, it's still going to be a little bit unique because of the person who's in it. And so I think. 

00:27:48 Hannah 

We can how? 

00:27:49 Hannah 

Do we customize this to work for what I'm required to do and the type of person that I? 

00:27:54 Kris 

Am So what if you're in a really prescribed? 

00:27:58 Kris 

Bob, so I'm thinking. 

00:28:00 Kris 

Thing like maybe I'll look at a checkout at a grocery store or a supermarket. Or maybe I work in retail, where I've got really set patterns and things. 

00:28:10 Kris 

I feel. 

00:28:10 Kris 

Like that would be quite difficult to find something that you can like grab onto from there and take and apply somewhere really like helpful. Maybe it's this idea of like. 

00:28:20 Kris 

Checking so. 

00:28:21 Kris 

Yeah, maybe you're in retail. So you love clothing. Maybe there's like, you know you you can leverage off. 

00:28:27 Kris 

Some of the things that you do in your job to enrich what you do personally, maybe you see what all the cool brands are and you enjoy fashion. So you you start flipping clothes. Yeah. Like I'm just trying to think, it seems like it'd be quite hard to. 

00:28:40 Kris 

Do in a more prescribed role. 

00:28:42 Hannah 

Yeah, I I 100% agree with that. I wonder though, if there is still. 

00:28:48 Hannah 

Some scope for like the way that you prioritize or also the way that you order tasks. So if you know like. 

00:28:54 Hannah 

That there's a time when you're going to be interrupted a lot more, like, you know, maybe you're looking down an aisle in a store and you're like, OK, yeah, this aisle is like going to be crazy at the moment because it's almost the dinner rush or whatever. So you can, like, sort of change the order or the way in which you do things to stop you being so interrupted or, you know, like, I don't think in the grocery stores. 

00:29:14 Hannah 

That they're like, putting, like rolling out the huge trolleys with like just majorly stack or you're not going to like rearrange A aisle during your like peak shopping. So I think that there is probably some scope for for all of us, whatever sort of work we're. 

00:29:33 Hannah 

For the way that we order or do things so that it can best accommodate the interruptions or yeah, just some of the, like, practical barriers that we may face. And I think again when I was like writing about this, I was thinking about that like I don't care counter and like really just like being annoyed by things. 

00:29:54 Hannah 

At least for me, can really affect my mood, you know, another thing I think as well, which is going a little bit of attention is. 

00:30:03 Hannah 

I'm a little bit more tired, so we're recording this at the end of 2023. I'm tired and so like annoying things are like niggling a little bit more than they should at the moment. 

00:30:12 Kris 

Yeah, they become way bigger than they should be. 

00:30:17 Hannah 

Yeah. And so yeah, that's right. So then again like being able to manage. 

00:30:18 Kris 

It doesn't take much. 

00:30:24 Hannah 

Annoying things. I think we can all. 

00:30:27 Hannah 

Manage annoying things so they don't like blow up bigger then they have to be, you know, and that could just be about like like I think I said at the end of my reflection like your pre and post work rhythms potentially become really important or add some richness. Is there something that you can do on your way home from? 

00:30:43 Hannah 

Work to. 

00:30:44 Hannah 

Just like do that, I don't care thing and like kind of release some of the annoyances. 

00:30:48 Hannah 

Would you need more rest? So you're not so tired? I totally agree with you. There's some of us who, like we just don't have the scope to shape our own schedule. 

00:30:57 Hannah 

Work. And that's so fine. But what could we do with the time that we can shape to help us be a better person? A, you know, a better version of ourselves at work? I think hopefully that there's some things we know. And I think when we have richness in our lives, like in that familiar loveliness that we talk about, those that being present. 

00:31:18 Hannah 

The simple, lovely things. 

00:31:22 Hannah 

That brings out the best Hannah. I know it does for me. 

00:31:25 Kris 

I'm thinking of like the people in retail over the holidays. They have to deal with just really crabby people. It's. 

00:31:33 Kris 

I don't know.